Host: Ezgi Toper
Guest: Khalil Charles

Producer: Ezgi Toper
Craft Editor: Nasrullah Yilmaz
Supervising Editor: Burak Bayram
Executive Producer: Nasra Omar Bwana

Transcript

KHALIL: The story that is told about Sudan is a complicated one, and people like easy stories, and that is, you know, there's a good guy and there's a bad guy. There's strong people, there's weak people. There's democracy, there's dictatorship. That is what the news kind of wants to hear. That's not the situation in Sudan.

EZGI: My name is Ezgi Toper, and this is “In the Newsroom”, a TRT Global Podcasts production, where I take you around our newsroom as I chat with my colleagues and go beyond the headlines. 

In Sudan, a civil war is raging into its third year. 

On one side is the Sudanese Armed Forces (or SAF) and on the other is a paramilitary group called the Rapid Support Forces (or RSF). 

The battle between the SAF and the RSF has led to the estimated death of more than 150,000 people, the displacement of over 14 million people and pushed over 24 million people to crisis levels of hunger. In fact, the World Food Program describes the situation as “the world’s worst humanitarian crisis.”

In this episode, I’m speaking with my colleague Khalil Charles from the TRT World news desk. Previously, he lived and worked in Sudan for about 14 years.

Looking ahead at the possibility for peace, he asks: can Sudanese people ever forgive the RSF for its atrocities? Let’s jump in.

KHALIL: When the RSF was created, which was by the former President Omar al Bashir, he created this as a force, as a border force really, that we're going to be able to quickly neutralise problems around the border areas of Sudan because Sudan has such a large border. It has about eight countries which border it, so it's really important that they could get around quickly.

And so as the name suggests, Rapid Support Forces, they will move very, very quickly to try and deal with threats in that area. And so they were part and parcel of the Sudan armed forces. 

EZGI: And so, the RSF worked alongside the SAF under Sudanese president Omar al Bashir for years but everything changed in 2019 when mass protests broke out against al Bashir and his 30-year rule of the country. 

KHALIL: You have to remember that Sudan became a country which was really, really pushing towards civilian rule. It was really fed up and tired of civilian rule being ignored and the country being ruled by generals and ruled by people from the army, and that's been the history of Sudan for a long time. 

EZGI: After months of protests, Al Bashir was finally ousted and a transitional government was formed to move Sudan toward democracy. It included both civilian leaders and the military, specifically two key figures: General Abdel Fattah al Burhan, the head of Sudanese Armed Forces, and Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo, aka “Hemedti”, the head of the RSF.

KHALIL: At that time when Omar al Bashir was removed in 2019, the hope was that people would have a civilian leader and part of that, civilian leaders needed to have an armed force which was united.

And so, here's the problem: the two of them, they disputed about when they would amalgamate, when they would become one army. The RSF said “hm after about 10 years.” And the Sudanese army said, “10 years? No. It should be less than 2 years, you should be done.” So this was the problem.

EZGI: This power struggle between the SAF and RSF turned violent on April 15th, 2023. Clashes broke out in the capital Khartoum, and then spread across the country.

KHALIL: Now you have to remember. The RSF were working in cahoots with Sudan Armed Forces, so many of the people in RSF were actually stationed in very strategic positions across the country, so they didn't actually fight a battle; they were already stationed there.

For example, inside the palace. The RSF was protecting the palace. So all these areas that they were once protecting, they then became places for them to be able to stage their coup and stage their attack against the army. So that’s the basis of what they’re trying to do.

Now, what's very important is that 80 percent of the ammunition was in the control of the RSF. The army actually had no ammunition. They had no weapons. They were very short of being able to fight that.

EZGI: Their war turned major cities into battlegrounds, and villages and farms into ashes. It decimated Sudan’s public services as schools, hospitals, water and electricity services were all targeted. Factories and markets were bombed, skyrocketing the prices of food and fuel. In Darfur and Kordofan, entire communities have been wiped out because of their ethnicity.

Because this war between these two sides has been so intense, so bloody, the humanitarian crisis that's unfolded in Sudan is what a lot of the activists are focusing on. We've heard reports of ethnic cleansing, sexual violence, mass killings. What do we know so far about what the RSF has actually done on the ground? Because getting media reports out of Sudan has been very challenging. 

KHALIL: Yes, what Sudan has faced is exactly that, getting the reports out there, getting the world to listen to what's been happening to most people, but it's just been a catalogue of real human rights abuses, like you say, sexual violence, etc. This has been the feature of what most of the RSF have done.

Now, some people would argue that the RSF, because many of them don't come from Sudan, they're saying, well, it's not the Sudanese who were involved in that, it's people from outside of Sudan. I would challenge that but indeed the RSF because they come from different areas, you may feel a bit of anonymity and unfortunately horribly a lot of that has been used in the kind of violence that they've used, sexual violence and others, and so most of that's happened in Darfur, in that area, and has continued to happen with people not being able to go in and relieve people or get them out of those areas.

EZGI: Darfur was also the epicentre of violence back in 2003. While the RSF was not formally established until around 2013, its precursor, the Janjaweed, was actively involved in violent operations in the region. 

The Janjaweed was primarily Arab militias armed and supported by the Sudanese government to quell a growing rebellion in Darfur. But Human Rights Watch reports they carried out widespread atrocities in the region, including killings and rapes of civilians. Their actions during this period laid the groundwork for what would later become the RSF. 

So this new war is also connected to old tensions, tribal divisions, and competition for resources.

KHALIL: Since then, they took over basically large areas of wealth, in particular the gold mines. They possessed a lot of money in that sense, and also got later on chosen as missionaries. They went to Yemen, they went to Libya and they got paid a lot of money for fighting on behalf of the Saudis and the Emiratis.

EZGI: Sudan is such a rich country as far as what it has to offer. So it's no surprise that international actors are going to take an interest in this conflict. What forces are supporting the RSF or challenging their power? Who is backing the Sudanese armed forces? Can you paint that picture for us as an international scope?

KHALIL: Because Sudan has always traditionally had to rely on the Gulf countries and on Egypt and others for support. And for finance issues as well because they have been under sanctions for such a long time so the Gulf countries are the ones that were going to help them and carried on helping them during that time. 

So, in particular, the Gulf country of Saudi Arabia and also of the Emirates have very much been supportive of Sudan. However, they seem to have gone too far. And the reason why is, because not many people are aware but the Emirates had a very strategic role in getting rid of Omar al Bashir, the previous leader.

They were supplying support to him and they withdrew their support, and at the end the people who supported the Emirates went in from the army and took — so they've always had an involvement. If you look at the banking system, it comes out of Emirates, it comes out of Dubai, you know, there are passport, there are apps that people use to sell, to send the money to their family, that comes via the Emirates. 

EZGI: You mentioned the gold mines. The RSF controls many, many gold mines. Is that how they're funding their operations or are there other ways as well?

KHALIL: Most of that gold is sold to the Emirates. And the Emirates are the ones that provides them the money. They stay close to them because of the gold. They've been able to benefit from the gold of the mines that are owned by the RSF, and so they continue to profit from that, and they want to continue to profit from that and the idea of political changes, which when they decided they wanted Bashir out, they also were very keen that the kind of country that they created was very much in the control of the Emirates.

And so Hemedti was asked by them and he says this in his statements – Hemedti being Mohamed Dagalo, the leader of RSF — he said in his statements that “you asked me to get rid of those people, those Islamic people, you asked me to get rid of them, OK, but you're not supporting me, you're not doing enough for me to…” He actually came on a statement and said that, you know, because he realised that he was actually encouraged by the — told by the Emirates that “we will help you if you take things over.”

That's his claim. They may not be true, but that's the claim that has been made, and it continues to be the interest of the Emirates to ensure, because they have a really vested interest in making sure, that they have parts of that area and it's not just Sudan that they're involved in, they're involved in Somalia and Ethiopia, etc.

So the person that's really… or the team that's really… or the country that's really against them is Egypt and that's why it's an interesting balance here that Egypt, which of course has always been against the government of Sudan, is now standing with the government of Sudan.

There were claims that very very prominent Arabic media stations were actually partly owned by the RSF and so they've always been very positive and very, very supportive. Those Arabic strokes, you know, in support of the RSF and so the RSF really used the media to try and put up a picture that they're wonderful people doing great things for the community and great for the people, but in fact that was hiding the kind of violence that of course has taken over Sudan and really destroyed the future of the people in Sudan.

EZGI: The region itself is very fragile. We have Chad, we have South Sudan, we have Ethiopia. So much is going on in these countries in their own aspects. How is this war affecting them and the broader Horn of Africa?

KHALIL: Oh, it's really forced people to make decisions as to who should they align with and who should they not align with. The Egyptians have made a decision to call the RSF “terrorists”. I think that they're not quite terrorists, but certainly militia. They didn't recognise them as being an army or anything of that nature, but via the Emirates, you find that Ethiopia has a position based on what the Emiratis are going to let them do or not do. You've got that kind of thing also going on. 

Chad has also been supporting the RSF and allowing them to get arms shipments in and out. So it's a really kind of very difficult and complex situation that is going on.

EZGI: What about in terms of displacement? 

KHALIL: Yeah, in terms of displacement, that is a horrible situation. People left in droves to come out of different areas. You've got people in Chad, you've got people in Egypt, you've got people in Kenya, you've got people in Ethiopia, you've got people who left Sudan in their droves, as fast as they can away from those areas because it really, really was unsafe. Having said that, when some of the areas like in Khartoum, like in Jazira, like in El Obeid, some of those areas have now been liberated and so people are starting to come back. 

EZGI: Everyone is labelling this the world's worst humanitarian crisis, yet it's also the least talked about. Why do you think that is? Why do you think Sudan is getting less media attention than conflicts such as in Ukraine or in Gaza? 

KHALIL: Well, I think it's nothing new that people in Africa and Sudan in particular, have never had any international support. Where you had the kind of situation that was going on, which was labelled as a genocide and really was a terrible situation happening in Darfur, you did get some attention from people who wanted to stop what was happening. So it's nothing new that people are not really interested in what happens on the African continent. 

And I think that people in Sudan don't necessarily sell themselves well because they're not necessarily keen on changing the status of Sudan into kind of a more liberal way of doing things.

It's fighting to remain Sudan and it means that culturally there are so many things that they have the traditions that they want to keep without kind of passing it off to this idea that we're going to be democratic and all the rest. Which is great. They do want to be democratic, but they also want to maintain the culture and the norms, the normal things that they do in Sudan. They want to maintain this.

EZGI: We've had two years of this. With such deep trauma, especially in places like Darfur, as you mentioned, so much has been reported on what the RSF has carried out in this grapple of power. Do you think the Sudanese people can ever forgive the RSF when, potentially, hopefully, the time comes that there is a reconciliation process or a peace process?

KHALIL: I've in fact written an article about this because it was something which was of great concern to people. How can they reintegrate the RSF into the average Sudanese life, and I think the conclusion was that it's almost impossible for people to accept people who were part of the RSF to go back into normal life. That's not to say that it's not possible, it's extremely difficult, and I think one of the things that the people in Sudan, they don't want to give any legitimisation at all to the RSF. And so the nature of discussions and talks and these kind of things and negotiations tends to suggest that they have a platform and a position and something to offer. I think that most people in Sudan don't agree that they have a platform or anything to offer, and they are disappointed that they continue to be just the puppet of the outside forces.

At the moment, I think there's a big push towards getting as much records, documentation of the events that have happened and how they have affected and impacted people's lives. So there are organisations that have been documenting what happened and how it happened, and I think they'll be very important in moving things forward.

I personally feel that we need to have something on the lines of the the South African Truth and Reconciliation. I think it's important because I think people do need to face the truth about what happened.

You're always going to have this friction and this resentment of people who lost their lives, lost their families, lost everything at the hands of people like the RSF. So I do feel there needs to be a kind of catharsis amongst the Sudanese people who, they say in Arabic “sāmiḥ yaʿnī” meaning a very, very forgiving people.

I think they can be, but they really need to get an opportunity to find out what happened, who was to blame, and get that person to stand up in front and really confess or be punished for what happened.

Sudanese people are resilient, are such nice people that they will, I don't think that they will live in a trauma. I don't. I don't see that in the Sudanese. I think that they will be able to move on, create their families, and really forgive and forget in some ways. Perhaps never forget, but really forgive as best as they can to move their country forward and to move their families and their people forward. I'm looking forward to that time.

EZGI: I’m definitely looking forward to that time too. Thank you so much Khalil for joining us and sharing all your insights.

As we’ve heard, Sudan’s journey toward peace and stability is fraught with challenges. Gulf nations like Saudi Arabia and the UAE play a crucial role, while the media, particularly in the Arab world, often shapes the narrative. 

Khalil remains doubtful about the possibility of reintegrating the RSF into Sudanese society due to the deep resentment of its victims, but he holds hope for Sudan's future, reminding us of the resilience and capacity for forgiveness among its people.

Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, I’m Ezgi Toper, and this was “In the Newsroom”.